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    Dear Ell
    ***** hurts – I understand.
    I am glad that your husband’s counsellor told you that your silence would be the most difficult thing for your CG to handle but I am not 100% sure it is the right thing for either of you.   Silence can be punishing and I am not of the opinion that your husband ***** to be punished.
    Silence is hard but dear Ell I am not judging – you have been through a lot of pain and your reaction is understandable.
    ***** is often a protective instinct and human.   I get the feeling that your husband is very afraid of what has gone before, what is happening and what will happen- his mind is not clear.   My feeling is that unless there is communication he can’t make things right and with lack of understandinghe could make things a lot worse.      
    I think it is great that your husband’s therapist tells you that he be***ves in your CG.   it was unusual I think to divulge such a confidence and therefore contains hope.   Did you tell him about the ongoing ***s?  
    I don’t know the ***s your husband is saying and maybe you would rather talk in the privacy of the group.   If he is still saying black is white I understand your concern.   If he is saying he has swept the floor, when he has not – but he is worried that you will be cross with him, I feel maybe he ***** a bit more time in his recovery – but he ***** to hear that it is the *** that hurt, not the floor being upswept which you cannot tell him in silence. 
    I am not a person who can live with silence Ell. My husband grew up with a father who would express himself in silence and he had an unhappy childhood with him.   I am a be***ver in communication although there are ***** when it is better to be silent but 10 days is a long time for your husband’s mind not to hear you speak.   He cannot know where he is with you.  
    Do you know where you want to be with him?   I know you will be ok and I know your daughter will be ok because of your strength – but I don’t want you to lose someone that you do love but who is not behaving as well as he should because he hasn’t reached the point of understanding – yet.     
    I think I need you to talk more so that I can understand.


     ***** all and thank you

     ohhh Velvet trahnk you for all  …
    I’m tired in my mind not in my body. So many things to deal with …. I need a pause.
    I need time for all that. Maybe it is wrong choice my silence but I need time for my mind..Maybe I’m pushing him, I don’t know …You know..I have too much on my plate all this months. And all my problems are equally difficult.
     I have my cg problem , I have my family financial problem I have the less hours with my daughter and of course I have my businesses and I have crises here ,I own 3 businesses  I try to handle all the businesses financial and try  have c***nts. My head is full enough. If I don’t do that I will not have food on my home in the future, you can understand that.
    My day time runs quiqlky and I have boxes in my mind. My right hand here when I come in my work she always starts:  at 10 minutes you have this appointment and you must stay only 10 minutes then you have to do this and then that. Now I open for 10 minutes this box to try finding a solution … after I must talk with the teachers here and find the solutions too, but I must have clear mind, after that I must talk with the banks and I also must have clear mind.
    So I close the other boxes. when you have your own businesses and crises comes things are rough so when you also having a cg things becomes tougher …when you also having financial problems to deal with things becomes tougher, and when the day finishes at 23:00 and you go home, you understand that you saw your child only for 3 hours today and things becomes harder. And you are tired and sad because you miss your child, you cannot talk and talk and talk for the same things because you are tired and you must find some minutes to talk only to yourself.. I’m not a therapist velvet you can understand me , im his wife …Im not punishing him …

    I try to do everything I can, that is why I have too much on my plate all this months
    If I was only a wife and a mother I know that some things would be better. But I’m not .I don’t have time for a bath, I’m doing my hair and shower so quickly get my suits and leave home with a smile for my c***nts. My mind velvet is tired not my body so much but my mind.
    Forgive me velvet for writing all these now but I realize now that I need it. I absolutely know that you know all of that and you understand me very well and with all of you I can give solutions to my cg problems.
    I’m sad with the ***s of my cg and tired from all my problems that is why silence happens. It is not a trick. It happens because somehow someone cause it . I can understand velvet that this maybe is a punishment for both of us especially for my cg but let me tell you all my steps the last 10 days:
    I am o person like you v, I want to discuss and communicate and talk and try with discussing resolve the problems. (but you are the one who always reminds me myself and my feelings and my own recovery )
    It was Monday when I found out the first ***. He cannot speak to me, he cannot neither say I’m sorry, not because he don’t feel it but because he just can’t find the words or the way.
    His day time is very difficult too he is working for so many hours too . And he is missing his child too.
    The first 2 days I did a conversation with him I asked him why? What he was thinking? Why he choose it? For ***** to me. He cannot speak so I told him that ***s is something I don’t want in my life and now I must think how we are going to pay it . The next 3 days silence for the ***. We have a polite behavior.   I was waiting for something , something to tell me , even  I’m sorry , something .
    On Friday I sent him a letter 4 pages velvet, trying to give him understand what is  addiction and the behavior of that, trying to tell him my thoughts and my feelings. Some of my thoughts were emotional thoughts with feelings and some others were just cynical. But I did it velvet. I gave him time to think 4 days and then I realized that he need help and because I was not so good for a face to face talk  I choose to write him a letter of my hurt . To give him the time to think without my voice and my face if he is afraid of me.
    He answered me that he is very sorry and he loves me and he was afraid and he doesn’t know how to explain the choice he made. I’m not asking to explain me but I wrote him that im here I understand the addiction behavior and you must change it. If you don’t, you and I have a problem.
    He understand everything from the letter and he gave me his answer writing too . But face to face silence .I wrote him that I love him and need him (in the letter)  but    if all the addiction problems becomes hard for me so that I cannot be a good mother for my daughter I will leave you,  to find myself and my power for my daughter . Because my child deserve the best mother of the world. But she also deserve the best father too so it is up to you to make things only right for now on.
    All that happened the day with the letters. The next two days nothing and the third he told me another *** for money who owned to us but he ***d because he wanted to cover his friend to me. But this choice I told him that ok I understand that you want to cover your friend to me  but I cannot accept it.  I cannot understand how you can choose to leave me uncover for that money too?
    If the timing was not the same for the wrong choices things could be maybe better. But happens the same time and was his choice again.So i start thinking that i speak to a wall.

    That day was his therapist meeting.  The therapist  knows everything for me, he read the letters he knows the ***s everything. He be***ves in my cg velvet, yes he said that 3 or 4 *****.
    The therapist said to me that my silence sake him because he is used of me with conversations and efforts.
    And now he sees (my cg) that I’m not in the **** to talk and he realize that ***s are the only  way for loosing ell .  I wrote to  my cg that you afraid ell reaction  (mine) if she(i) leave ? But I wrote him that he will make me go from his wrong attitude.  He must try to do right things and he must succeed .There is no other choise.
    And now for me:  You asked me “””Do you know where you want to be with him?  “””
    I love him, I need him in my life and in my daughter’s life , I want my hair become white together ,  I want to go out from all this stronger and winners but if I understand that I cannot handle the situation  I will never leave someone to manipulate or take advantage of me or hurting me even he don’t do it on purpose velvet. That is why when the shine shine comes I don’t know where I would be…  
     And of course I know velvet that I must stand up again because I’m more mature and I can teach him again from these mistakes… and the silence is difficult because he is a close person and with no talking he is becoming closer and frightened and making steps back and we don’t need that now.
     But I think that silence also makes him realize that I’m not from silver and he must grow up. He is sorry for not talking me . Maybe someone tell that im pushing him …be***ve me that I’m not doing something on purpose ….My reactions just happens because I feel betrayed and I must change it that.
    I don’t know if you make sense from all that….im at work and im writing to you all my thoughts …..
    Thank you very much velvet ….for your help
     — 7/3/2013 4:18:27 µµ: post edited by ell.


    Dear Ell
    It is late and I must go to bed so that I can wake up and give you my full attention.
    I understand every word you say – you are incredibly eloquent and your feelings radiate from the screen.
    I know all about the little boxes in your head – I have them too.
    I will write tomorrow – I hope you sleep well tonight


    Dear Ell
    You are trying to be all things to all people and although you are one of the most amazing women I have had the honour to ‘know’ you are not super-human.
    I have just opened my ‘Ell Box’.   It is a delicate box packed with goodness, love and strength. There are 3 businesses in the box – they are demanding and need Ell’s attention.   There is child in the box – a child who will grow to appreciate her wonderful mum but who also wants Ell’s attention now.   There are in-laws in the box that are good people but a bit demanding.   The most difficult thing in Ell’s box is a CG – one she loves and who loves her but who is not able, or ready yet, to give Ell the help and support she *****. There are ugly lies and debts in the box that are making it muddled and heavy to carry.    There is a brother in the box who is kind and good and I am glad to see him there.   There is silence in the box where there should be laughter.
    It is a complicated box and one that I open with trepidation because although it is strong it is fragile. To me it is incredibly important that the box is protected, that the lies and the debts are taken out, making it easier to carry and leaving room for laughter.  
    I think dear Ell that there is nothing I could tell you that you do not already know – you have a capacity for understanding your husband and his addiction that leaves me awe-struck.  
    It is my belief that someone like you can and will come out stronger and that you will win.   I believe you can handle your situation because you are doing it, you have done it and I think you will continue to do it.   I think you need to pour out your feelings as you are doing but you need to know there are listening ears who understand.
    I know you are not punishing your husband – I hope I didn’t imply that you were.   I believe, as I think you do, that he feels he is being punished and he cannot see that this is the only way you can hold all your boxes together so you do not drop them.  
    I think you see your situation very clearly – your understanding of your husband’s addiction is terrific – his understanding of you is not but he can learn.  
    I can only offer you my ears, my thoughts and my earnest desire that you come through this valley of tears with your head up.   Your husband has not betrayed you but you know that.   Your silence is taking him further away and he is frightened but at the moment you cannot change that.
    Is there a day during the week when you don’t work?   Is there any time in your life for you?   Is there one hour that you can sit and eat with your husband alone and communicate your feelings?
    There is no ‘must’ about standing up Ell.   I want you to stand up because you are a mature person but I want you to stand up for you first.   CGs do lose their loved ones because they cannot cross the void between them that their addiction created – you do not ‘have’ to be the one that understands everything. 
    I want you to look after the person that is carrying my Ell Box.   I will support you as much as I can but I want you to look after you.
    If only it was so easy to open and shut the boxes in our lives.   You need time for ‘you’ Ell. Keep writing your thoughts. Writing helped me close my boxes that had been splitting open and spilling out – making a terrible mess.   I coped because I poured myself out in writing as you are doing.   I never went back and read a word that I had written – the writing had done its job. 
    Some time ago I heard about a woman of 85 who had, had an unhappy life with her husband and he had ****. She was consumed by anger that he had hurt her so badly.  She wrote all the things he had done to hurt her on pieces of paper then she took them to the top of a hill on a windy day, she read each one individually again and then screwed that piece of paper up and throwing it into the wind saying out loud ‘I am letting this memory go ’. When she had finished she went home and booked a holiday on a cruise ship and that was the last I heard of her.  
    I believe this is a true story but whether it is or not I think that writing pain down and then destroying the pages can give relief.   I destroyed all the pages that I had written – I burnt some and shredded some.   Your words are printed in this forum but you can lose them one day when you are ready. What you say in the group doesn’t leave the room.   I also believe in saying things out loud to yourself, so that you can hear your thoughts – silence does not allow that you do this.   Perhaps if you break your silence with yourself it will help you break it with your husband.  Thoughts go round and round in our heads and I believe they need an outlet. 
    I hope somewhere in all this you may find something that will give you some support.   Your husband’s addiction has hurt a very special person far too much – whatever you do I will understand.  
    As Always


    I just read your post and have tears in my eyes. You cannot imagine how well you can read me , If I you were near me I would give you a big and a tight hug . Only my mother can understand me so well and I feel you are my mother this time in my life.
    You are so special woman velvet , wise and you have a talent.
    I’m reading your post again and again and everything on my mind continuously changes , It is like you pushed Again Velvet the button which gives me power and strength to stand up immediately with no special effort  .You just did it .I feel that you made me find again  my forgotten self.
    It has been along time that I have not thought of my boxes and made me realize that ultimately is a new birth for my own self too.
    I feel the power and the feelings of your words. You broke my silence again …and
    the feeling I have now is that I want to hug you and I want to hug my cg too  . I want to give him  a smile and a hug to move on .
    thank you velvet you are a fantastic woman


    Dear Ell.
    Yes, Ell, Velvet is a fantastic woman, who has used her painful experiences to learn about addiction AND about recovery for addicts and for those of us who are not addicts but do love an addict in our family. 
    I just want to add that you, too, are a fantastic woman.  You are in a different place and different stage of life, but, yes, you are also fantastic.
    I have been reading your posts and feeling for you in your struggles and am amazed at how you can cope with so much.  (I cannot cope if I am too busy.)
    I am glad you are able to get support here and I continue to hope with you for a good future for you and all your family.
    All good wishes, Monique. xKeep hope alive.


    ***** my dear dear Monique
    When I found this sait  I cannot forget that you were the first person who give me a warm welcome and told me that I’m in the right place for support . Velvet and you were my first posts.  When I read your post I was thinking “”” please god I need that to be true i need support “”
    And it is true …here with all of you I have all the support I need and more than that. You are a wonderful person Monique and you cope very well and your cg is your son not a husband and I believe deep inside me (no one can change me this thought  ) that when a cg is your own child things are tougher  and harder than a husband cg (my opinion) . When your cg is a hb you do whatever you can for help but you always know that you can change
     That is why I respect very very much the mothers of cg . When I start reading the forum my choice was to read first the posts with the mothers because I thought that I have to find inside me the power like mothers to help my cg . That I must try see him like my child and help him. Thank you for helping me Monique to do that . You are a wonderful and caring woman.
    Yesterday , when I read velvet post I left , I went home ,it was late,  my child was sleeping and  my cg came near me when I was in the baby cot looking my daughter sleeping . He was so afraid almost terrified …..and I gave him a smile  and he hug me immediately  and he was trying to breathe .He couldnt breathe . He felt so relieve, I know it . He couldn’t stand any more the silence. And he couldn’t find a way how to speak…
    We are still in the journey until something new happens Again …………..
    With all my love ell


    Dear Ell, well done! Positive vibes make negative energy go away! Filakia & thanks also for your message. X


    Hi Ell
    Sometimes there is just nothing left to say, sometimes there are things that should be said and are not being said for whatever reason, sometimes when it is said, we are so busy talking that we miss it, we do not hear the volume of what is said by silence and in silence.
    Our trust is destroyed through incident after incident, lies and deceipt to the point whether we can wonder if it can ever return. The ability for a CG to trust in themselves is also destroyed and in turn this must affect their ability to trust in others, to trust enough to communicate, to say the truth when possibly they have lost touch with what that is. I think I learned that I expected too much. To say nothing, is one way of keeping you, compared with the truth which provides such a risk or is blocked in denial.
    Like you Ell I made every effort to understand this addiction, I read until I could read no more and posted until i dried up completely, there was an idea in my head of what a recovery would mean to him and to me and to us. There was also an idea of why it should occur and when. I was wrong on nearly all of it.
    I think the main reason I was a way off the mark was because I wasn’t actually listening, I thought I was but I wasn’t, I heard the bits I wanted to hear and filled in the gaps. I listened but didn’t hear. I read and I made things fit into my idealistic view of what should be.
    I said what I thought was the right things to say, things that would in some way make a recovery more likely, believing that in some way I could influence that – wrong again, all that achieved was to help me forget who I was as well !!
    What I am getting around to saying before i ramble on is, don’t allow this addiction to close you down, do not let it stop you from communicating what you feel and recieving the communication he is sending to you either within speech or silence, never mind what is being said or not said we all know that the addiction likes to dictate this – what do you see before you and what does it feel like ?
    My biggest regret if I have one was in not listening enough, the wrong type of communication, no wonder i couldn’t understand that it couldn’t be understood. Not saying what I should have said and saying what i shouldn’t say because it was what i thought I should say or i feared the response or the outcome if I said it. My biggest regret is the breakdown of communication it was very nearly the end for us.
    Your CG couldn’t find a way to speak but he let you know how he was feeling, it brought a lump to my throat reading the end of your last post. Keep listening Ell and he will tell you so much more
    Jenny x
     We see things not as they are, but through how we are today x


    Dear Ell 
    Opening my Ell box and seeing your smile was wonderful.
    Reading your last post and Jenny’s reply has bowled me over.
    Neither of you mentioned being strong and yet both of you talked about yourselves and your change.   Neither of you talked about your CG’s change or what they had to do to make things right.   Neither of you talked about what they had achieved – only what you were achieving.      
    In your silence I think you have found Ell and somewhere in the last few weeks while Jenny has not been posting, it seems she has been finding herself. It isn’t about living with or without a CG in the end – it is about you.   It isn’t about your ***** – it is finding out who you are.
    I remember a member who wrote and said that when she was first told to look after herself and find her recovery, she didn’t understand – but it had been those words that had borne the greatest fruit for her.
    As long as we are defensive I don’t think we will change and the addiction makes us defensive.  We did everything with good intentions and only with the experiences of our own lives to guide us.   We tried to be good and honest so what was it all about?
    We met the addiction to gamble and it shook our lives to the core.   We tried to put everything right and everything went wrong.   In my opinion it is good to have an opportunity in life to sit down with yourself and look at who you are and how you got to the point you have reached and for that you need to be quiet.   When the addiction hits you, you can sink or swim – you can try and understand or feel they are wrong and that is that.   You can forgive or not. You can forget or not. You can work on yourself or accept yourself and feel there is no room for improvement.
    I cannot imagine what it is like to own the addiction to gamble.   I don’t know what my reaction to others would have been if I did own it.   What I do know is that it takes a mighty big person to analyse their behaviour if it has been dreadful to others and take control of a mind-distorting addiction.     If I couldn’t analyse my life, my thoughts, my flawed judgements whilst expecting him to do all these things then what was I offering?   I felt his action deserved a reaction from me but even without his action being to choose recovery I had to react to his addiction – for me.   
    I have learned more about people on this site than at any other time in my life.    It doesn’t just stop with the site either – what I have learned has spilt over into all my life.   I am not the person I was. I still don’t know what, or if, I did anything wrong.   I have taken a leaf out of the book of CGs when they enter a real recovery – they have to be honest with themselves and it isn’t easy.  
    I hope that you are still smiling and getting the hugs you deserve. Maybe there will be something still to learn for you but when you smiled, I believe you were saying that Ell had looked after herself and could cope.  
    There is only so much that this forum can give in information. What is done with the information is down to the member.    You made the difference in the end Ell – nobody did it for you and it brought a lump to my throat too.
    speak soon


    Jenny thank you  very much for posting me.  Sorry for not answering in the right time. I read your post  many ***** and I can feel all the meaning of your answer to me . Thank you for telling me and remind me things that  already happened  to you and protect  me for not doing . I know that from your experience I can learn all the next steps that I will find in front of me .  Jenny I try to listen but I cannot tell that I will always will be able to listen everything or understand everything.  If I want to listen everything and not lose nothing for the communication I must improve me .I realize that his addiction is something that happened in my life and it will change Me . I want to be ok with my self first , I don’t know if me and my cg will succeed but I want if we broke up someday (if) to be a stronger and  a healthier  personality for my child . Like you, you are a stronger person now and a wise woman. Even I am with my cg or not I want to work on me and improve me  to accept all the right and the wrong things that im doing for the addiction . Jenny thank you for teaching me to not allow the addiction to close me down and to not lose the meaning of communication first for myself and then for my cg.
    Velvet  your last  post for jenny and me  made me think so much and different things , the key to everything is our defensive attitude. If we go way from this feeling everything then has many chances to succeed.
    But For throwing away the  defensive attitude  means that  you must learn not to have complex and have free thought  and not  afraid  the changes in your  life .
    Free mind with no judge is the key to get read of the defensive attitudes that addiction causes and not only the addiction but almost everything  in life . But real no judge ,  not just to be polite and say that you will not judge. I know that you understand what  I’m trying to say .
    The person velvet with no complex in his attitude  , with free mind with no real judge the others and with always improving him self velvet was my father and is my brother now. I leaved with my father who  only dream was my brother and I to be personalities without complex because that was the key for someoene to succeed in all the chapters in  life  .My brother  teaching me every day when we have a problem to put it in a box and  go out of the box and see the problem from upstairs and try not to have feelings when we are upstairs the box but only free  mind and we will see the solution easily. Always  a third person see  more clear a solution to a problem than someone with feelings . He is teaching me  how we can be the third person for ourselves.

    Velvet my life of course with my brother now is always how we can improve our selves from heart. If someone can do this then he is a good person , not in words but in the meaning . I want if I die someone to tell that I was a good person and nothing more than that . I work for this and my brother always teaching me.
    But you can understand how difficult is to do this when the slaps of addiction  are hard enough and the feelings is pain after the slamps
    Your posts are so wise!
    I hope  velvet to understand me , I wrote my thoughts and I don’t know if I can make sense .  with all my love ell,
    My cg is smiling and he went to cut his hair and his beard and he feels more NEW now.
    — 13/3/2013 3:57:56 µµ: post edited by ell.
    — 13/3/2013 5:35:24 µµ: post edited by ell.
    — 14/3/2013 11:03:40 pµ: post edited by ell.– 20/3/2013 2:34:45 µµ: post edited by ell.


    hey everyone. I am new here. my husband has been a gambler for as long as I can remember. its has caused many a problem, his lies, how low he would sink to get a bet on. it has come to head…my heart is broke, he doesn’t see it like I do. he hasn’t really accepted his problem. he says he goin to get help. heard it all before. we are not a well-off family and his using money that we need. lies. deceit. I am feeling really sad and hurt and unsure about it all. :(stay positive, strong and true to yourself


    Dear Ell
    I am sure I can hear you saying good morning when I get up. 
    We have spoken since your birthday and I did write ‘happy birthday’ in Greek but forgot to press ‘send’.   I’m afraid I do it a lot – but then I am a lot older than you and need to be forgiven for being a bit dozy at *****.
    I just wanted to say good afternoon to you.  
    Zoals ooit – met liefde


    My update
    ***** all my friends
    Here in Greece we had Easter.  So for 4 days we had holidays with no work at all. That was very very good for me. So I spent all the 4 days with my daughter with walks and teaching her so many things.  I’m so happy for this. She smiling at me and I’m so happyyyyy.
    My cg is doing ok he is still free from gambling. His recovery doing well. The 4 days helped our relationship too.  He got his monthly payment   at 01/05/2013 in his account. When he takes his salary   I have all the codes and transfer immediately all the money to my own account the same day. The new for me is that this month I didn’t do it. I did not transfer the money. I told him that I will do it …tomorrow. he asked me once  and I  told  him: tomorrow yes I will remove it but I didn’t . Today is 08/05/2013. For eight days his salary is in his own account. He never took a euro from there. I think that was a lesson for him and for me to see how accountable is now with the money and our debts.  Anyway I’m glad that the money is in the account but I will transfer them now and maybe the next 6 month I will do it again for check.
    My dear velvet Good afternoon to you too, today I’m at work but I’m full from my daughter.
    With all my love ell .
    ***** livsg123
    I m so sorry for not see your post on my thread because I was on holidays. I want to say to you a warm welcome here in GT site. I can feel you and understand you so good. Here you will find help and support with no judging at all. You are in the right place for you. I know that you post me 01/05/2013 and no one saw it because it was in my thread. Please make a new post in this forum with your name on it and you will meet all our members and of course you will meet velvet.  I don’t know how to do it for you, sorry.We will speak very soon.

    Welcome livsg and don’t forget how strong you are. With all my love ell


    My Dear Ell,
    I am so glad you posted today. I am a little more comfortable posting on other’s threads now, so I want to tell you something because It is important to me that you know this:
    Yours was the first thread I read when I discovered this sight on 5/1/13,  and it was because  livsg123  had mistakenly posted her first cry for help on your thread that day – so you were at the top of the list. I call that a "God Thing". Have you ever heard that term? (I hope  livsg123  gets her post moved to F&F,  or starts her own thread, and I hope she comes back soon.)
    Upon arriving here at this website that night I was in a very sad place in my heart:  I’d had a very rough day (rough month really), and I was skeptical that anything could help. 
    I had other matters demanding my attention that night, and I might not have even spent much time here but for two things:
       1)  I was desperate and feeling frantic to find some answers. 
     And … what glued me to the screen … 
        2)  your truly amazing ability to express your thoughts and emotions about your experiences so clearly and eloquently.  
      Ell  –  in my dire emotional state that night it almost felt as though I was reading about ME.  You  were telling what,  in so many ways,  felt like MY story,  but you were speaking with a clarity and insight that I do not possess.   
    This is not meant to take anything away from your story, because it is yours alone – not mine.  But so many of the things you said over the months hit so close to my home that you have unknowingly (until now) landed in a special place in my heart.  (ha – that’s my first time to use one of those thingys)  
    I have drawn a great deal of strength, courage and hope from your posts – and the gentle but ever wise guidance given to you (and all of us) by our dear Velvet. 
    So, I just wanted you to know that YOU have made a difference in my life.  (these things are cool!) I hope you are smiling too…
     "… should I give up or should I just keep trying to run after you when there's nothing there?"  Adele

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